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	<title>Comments on: Google Claims to be the Lone Defender of Orphans: Not lone, not defender</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 18:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Business Attorney</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1641</link>
		<dc:creator>Business Attorney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 07:48:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1641</guid>
		<description>Maybe google is trying to take over the smithsonian institute or the library of congress.  Interesting how they are doing this, and seemingly getting more and more information every day.  Although I like the proliferation of information, it certainly shouldn't be at the authors expense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe google is trying to take over the smithsonian institute or the library of congress.  Interesting how they are doing this, and seemingly getting more and more information every day.  Although I like the proliferation of information, it certainly shouldn&#8217;t be at the authors expense.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1639</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1639</guid>
		<description>The Million Books project aims to scan digitalizing out of print books so that people can read them in the digital library.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Million Books project aims to scan digitalizing out of print books so that people can read them in the digital library.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: personal finance software</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1637</link>
		<dc:creator>personal finance software</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1637</guid>
		<description>google needs to get their act together.  honestly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>google needs to get their act together.  honestly</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Molly</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1635</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jun 2010 12:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1635</guid>
		<description>Well, I can’t trust. I don’t want a publisher (Google) who has massively and knowingly violated copyright law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I can’t trust. I don’t want a publisher (Google) who has massively and knowingly violated copyright law.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1609</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 May 2010 10:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1609</guid>
		<description>As a user, i think google is the best search engine in internet. But sadly all ideals seem to have their heads turned by business in the end. For once it would be nice to see a result that benefits all mankind and not just the shareholders of major corporations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a user, i think google is the best search engine in internet. But sadly all ideals seem to have their heads turned by business in the end. For once it would be nice to see a result that benefits all mankind and not just the shareholders of major corporations.</p>
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		<title>By: dinamicSoft</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1608</link>
		<dc:creator>dinamicSoft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 May 2010 06:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1608</guid>
		<description>Indeed... google is the best SE and a great company</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed&#8230; google is the best SE and a great company</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mandy</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1607</link>
		<dc:creator>Mandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 May 2010 08:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1607</guid>
		<description>Amazing google is the best and the big Search Engine of all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazing google is the best and the big Search Engine of all.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Best Online JObs</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1601</link>
		<dc:creator>Best Online JObs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 May 2010 13:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1601</guid>
		<description>I never will never understand this companies that are trying to bring google down.Without google we couldnt be feeding our kids.so let em stop hatin'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never will never understand this companies that are trying to bring google down.Without google we couldnt be feeding our kids.so let em stop hatin&#8217;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Sandra</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1598</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 16:59:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1598</guid>
		<description>I totally agree with Schmidt we need a solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with Schmidt we need a solution.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Luisa</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1565</link>
		<dc:creator>Luisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1565</guid>
		<description>Google is very famous search engine all over the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Google is very famous search engine all over the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Email Blast Software</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1559</link>
		<dc:creator>Email Blast Software</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 22:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1559</guid>
		<description>Wow - why all the google hate - what company is doing more than them&#62;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow - why all the google hate - what company is doing more than them&gt;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: john mathews</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1527</link>
		<dc:creator>john mathews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1527</guid>
		<description>google is a "businessman"! and they have their priorities. MONEY is their first priority and everything else comes second. Whatever policy they make OR whatever decision they take for (their so called)human friendly policy is first need to benefit "them on moneytory grounds" (passively, if not actively) then they can think
of something else. Also, digitalizing the orphans seems a "real good move towards helping the needy" but they are NOT only one
who is doing so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>google is a &#8220;businessman&#8221;! and they have their priorities. MONEY is their first priority and everything else comes second. Whatever policy they make OR whatever decision they take for (their so called)human friendly policy is first need to benefit &#8220;them on moneytory grounds&#8221; (passively, if not actively) then they can think<br />
of something else. Also, digitalizing the orphans seems a &#8220;real good move towards helping the needy&#8221; but they are NOT only one<br />
who is doing so.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1484</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1484</guid>
		<description>Fortunately, Google is not the only party that support digitalizing the orphans. The Internet Archive also plays an important role in the Million Books Project. The Million Books project aims to scan digitalizing out of print books so that people can read them in the digital library.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fortunately, Google is not the only party that support digitalizing the orphans. The Internet Archive also plays an important role in the Million Books Project. The Million Books project aims to scan digitalizing out of print books so that people can read them in the digital library.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Annie Goes Public: Finding a Suitable Solution for Orphaned Works &#124; The Book of MPub</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1483</link>
		<dc:creator>Annie Goes Public: Finding a Suitable Solution for Orphaned Works &#124; The Book of MPub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1483</guid>
		<description>[...] [vi] Kahle, Brewster. “Google Claims to be the Lone Defender of Orphans: Not lone, not Defender.” Open Content Alliance. October 07, 2009. (http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-l.... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] [vi] Kahle, Brewster. “Google Claims to be the Lone Defender of Orphans: Not lone, not Defender.” Open Content Alliance. October 07, 2009. (http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-l&#8230;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1451</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 05:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1451</guid>
		<description>Sadly all ideals seem to have their heads turned by business in the end. For once it would be nice to see a result that benefits all mankind and not just the shareholders of major corporations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sadly all ideals seem to have their heads turned by business in the end. For once it would be nice to see a result that benefits all mankind and not just the shareholders of major corporations.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Daycare</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1439</link>
		<dc:creator>Daycare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1439</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Work From Home ......&lt;/strong&gt;

It is amazing how many moms over look this one ......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Work From Home &#8230;&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>It is amazing how many moms over look this one &#8230;&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: MyMediaLand</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1350</link>
		<dc:creator>MyMediaLand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1350</guid>
		<description>I think all media should be free. i will make all information available to most people</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think all media should be free. i will make all information available to most people</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Frances Grimble</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1291</link>
		<dc:creator>Frances Grimble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1291</guid>
		<description>In all this hoopla about orphan works, people seem to commonly overlook that Google scanned large quantities of in-print books by easily locatable authors and publishers. Regardless of how you feel about "freeing the orphans," these in-print books are financially necessary to authors and publishers. 

I am a self-publisher of eight books, only one of which is out of print--but it has been supplanted by a second edition that contains all the same material, with additions and updates. I have a website. My books are carried by Ingram (the industry’s largest wholesaler), by Amazon.com, and by numerous other bookstores locatable on the web.

I do not know whether Google scanned my books, because Google has not made their database of scanned books publicly available. I have never seen any public statement from Google (only extensive author speculation) as to how, if at all, the public database represented by Google Book Search compares to Google’s private database of books scanned for the Library Project.

Back when the Author's Guild suit was filed, Google set up a website where copyright holders could list their titles as "not to be scanned" by the Library Project. This was for copyright holders who were not Google Partners, and the site stated the books withdrawn from scanning consideration would also be absent from Google Book Search. I listed all my books in a timely way. However, five of my eight books (one searchable only by title, not author) are now listed on Google Book Search. No text is available, which would be a sure sign that they were scanned, so I don’t know why any data is on Google Book Search when Google said it would not be. I do not object to bibliographic data alone being there, but I would very much like to know whether this means my books were scanned against my express wishes.

In January 2009, I opted out of the entire Settlement (the unrevised version), via a letter written by a copyright lawyer and sent by certified mail to the Settlement Administrator. I understand why he advised me to send a certified letter, because I’ve seen Google’s on-line opt-out form in operation. Pretty much every time you register or buy something on the net, you get a confirmation web page and/or email. After submitting Google’s opt-out-of-the-Settlement form, you get nothing. You do not know whether your opt-out data was registered and you cannot legally prove later that you opted out. I advise any copyright holder who opted out using the online form, to follow this up with a certified letter. 

Then I tried to find out whether my books had been scanned—which information I think should be freely available to all copyright holders, to help them decide whether to opt out of or into the Settlement. I received a form response that said this information would only be released if I opted IN “for fear of false claims.” I said I was only interested in my own books, and submitted full bibliographic information on each, including ISBNs. I received the same response. But I’ve also seen the opt-in form. All it requires is basic bibliographic information that someone who did want to make a false claim could easily find on Amazon and numerous other places.

And:  The revised version of the Settlement still contains that paragraph near the end of the main part that says Google will not commit to _not_ publishing the titles of those who have opted out of the entire Settlement.

Some authors have asked me, why not remain in the Settlement and just opt out my in-print titles? I don’t do business with anyone I can’t trust. I don’t want a publisher (Google) who has massively and knowingly violated copyright law. I don’t want a publisher who theoretically offers me opt-outs (options) but will not commit to honoring them. I don’t want a publisher who will not give me open information about what they have done with my books. I don’t want a publisher who scans my books, then offers me a contract negotiated between themselves and another party (the Author’s Guild) the terms of which I cannot negotiate. Nor can I effectively protest if Google makes a “mistake” and sells any in-print titles that I opted out of the Settlement. (Having to go to Google’s arbitration if they make a “mistake” is a shuck.) I don’t want a publisher who tells me they will do anything they want with my copyrighted material without my prior permission, and pay me what they choose, and that all I can do is lie down and take it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In all this hoopla about orphan works, people seem to commonly overlook that Google scanned large quantities of in-print books by easily locatable authors and publishers. Regardless of how you feel about &#8220;freeing the orphans,&#8221; these in-print books are financially necessary to authors and publishers. </p>
<p>I am a self-publisher of eight books, only one of which is out of print&#8211;but it has been supplanted by a second edition that contains all the same material, with additions and updates. I have a website. My books are carried by Ingram (the industry’s largest wholesaler), by Amazon.com, and by numerous other bookstores locatable on the web.</p>
<p>I do not know whether Google scanned my books, because Google has not made their database of scanned books publicly available. I have never seen any public statement from Google (only extensive author speculation) as to how, if at all, the public database represented by Google Book Search compares to Google’s private database of books scanned for the Library Project.</p>
<p>Back when the Author&#8217;s Guild suit was filed, Google set up a website where copyright holders could list their titles as &#8220;not to be scanned&#8221; by the Library Project. This was for copyright holders who were not Google Partners, and the site stated the books withdrawn from scanning consideration would also be absent from Google Book Search. I listed all my books in a timely way. However, five of my eight books (one searchable only by title, not author) are now listed on Google Book Search. No text is available, which would be a sure sign that they were scanned, so I don’t know why any data is on Google Book Search when Google said it would not be. I do not object to bibliographic data alone being there, but I would very much like to know whether this means my books were scanned against my express wishes.</p>
<p>In January 2009, I opted out of the entire Settlement (the unrevised version), via a letter written by a copyright lawyer and sent by certified mail to the Settlement Administrator. I understand why he advised me to send a certified letter, because I’ve seen Google’s on-line opt-out form in operation. Pretty much every time you register or buy something on the net, you get a confirmation web page and/or email. After submitting Google’s opt-out-of-the-Settlement form, you get nothing. You do not know whether your opt-out data was registered and you cannot legally prove later that you opted out. I advise any copyright holder who opted out using the online form, to follow this up with a certified letter. </p>
<p>Then I tried to find out whether my books had been scanned—which information I think should be freely available to all copyright holders, to help them decide whether to opt out of or into the Settlement. I received a form response that said this information would only be released if I opted IN “for fear of false claims.” I said I was only interested in my own books, and submitted full bibliographic information on each, including ISBNs. I received the same response. But I’ve also seen the opt-in form. All it requires is basic bibliographic information that someone who did want to make a false claim could easily find on Amazon and numerous other places.</p>
<p>And:  The revised version of the Settlement still contains that paragraph near the end of the main part that says Google will not commit to _not_ publishing the titles of those who have opted out of the entire Settlement.</p>
<p>Some authors have asked me, why not remain in the Settlement and just opt out my in-print titles? I don’t do business with anyone I can’t trust. I don’t want a publisher (Google) who has massively and knowingly violated copyright law. I don’t want a publisher who theoretically offers me opt-outs (options) but will not commit to honoring them. I don’t want a publisher who will not give me open information about what they have done with my books. I don’t want a publisher who scans my books, then offers me a contract negotiated between themselves and another party (the Author’s Guild) the terms of which I cannot negotiate. Nor can I effectively protest if Google makes a “mistake” and sells any in-print titles that I opted out of the Settlement. (Having to go to Google’s arbitration if they make a “mistake” is a shuck.) I don’t want a publisher who tells me they will do anything they want with my copyrighted material without my prior permission, and pay me what they choose, and that all I can do is lie down and take it.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Brantley: Google Books: A High Bar for Approval &#8211; MR PC EASY</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1245</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Brantley: Google Books: A High Bar for Approval &#8211; MR PC EASY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:24:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1245</guid>
		<description>[...] digitization. Google was not the first entity to attempt to create a digital book collection. The Internet Archive and others were engaged in this endeavor for years before Google arrived on the scene, but they [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] digitization. Google was not the first entity to attempt to create a digital book collection. The Internet Archive and others were engaged in this endeavor for years before Google arrived on the scene, but they [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: JP_Fife</title>
		<link>http://www.opencontentalliance.org/2009/10/07/google-claims-to-be-the-lone-defender-of-orphans-not-lone-not-defender/comment-page-1/#comment-1165</link>
		<dc:creator>JP_Fife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.opencontentalliance.org/?p=586#comment-1165</guid>
		<description>"And many of us are objecting because we have been working together for years on the mass scanning of out-of-print books– and have worked to get books online for far longer than Google– and Google’s “settlement” could hurt our efforts."

Then you are as guilty as Google of theft. Fair Use doesn't cut it as that is primarily part of American Law. Worldwide 'fair use' differs.

Orphan Works is also a red herring. The point is simple: is a book in copyright or out of copyright? If out of copyright anyone can do anything with it. If in copyright you need permission. Saying it is an "orphan work" is akin to saying no one has lived in a house for years, can't trace the owner, so it's ok to break into it or try and sell it to someone else. I realise copyrights aren't houses but they are RIGHTS, and authors have the right not to have their work spattered across the internet without their permission. Are you going to trot out the 'doing them a favour' argument next?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And many of us are objecting because we have been working together for years on the mass scanning of out-of-print books– and have worked to get books online for far longer than Google– and Google’s “settlement” could hurt our efforts.&#8221;</p>
<p>Then you are as guilty as Google of theft. Fair Use doesn&#8217;t cut it as that is primarily part of American Law. Worldwide &#8216;fair use&#8217; differs.</p>
<p>Orphan Works is also a red herring. The point is simple: is a book in copyright or out of copyright? If out of copyright anyone can do anything with it. If in copyright you need permission. Saying it is an &#8220;orphan work&#8221; is akin to saying no one has lived in a house for years, can&#8217;t trace the owner, so it&#8217;s ok to break into it or try and sell it to someone else. I realise copyrights aren&#8217;t houses but they are RIGHTS, and authors have the right not to have their work spattered across the internet without their permission. Are you going to trot out the &#8216;doing them a favour&#8217; argument next?</p>
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